Giulia Tomasello and Chritian Dils, NGM Interview
Interview hosts: Yiyu Chen
2022.06.29
Berlin, online

Yiyu: How did you meet each other in Re-FREAM, and how did the project work?

Giulia: So Christian was my mentor from the technology side, especially to develop the sensor that we wanted to use for ALMA. ALMA is a project that is trying to empower female health, intimate health, by monitoring their vaginal fluids and trying to prevent early vaginal infection. So with the support of where Christian works, we wanted to develop a sensor based on textile which could monitor PH. But we met physically in July 2020 when the lockdown was released and I was able to travel to Berlin and to work together.

Y: You mentioned last time that you guys meet physically, like for two or three months?

G: Yes. We met on July 20. Until August or September. I was in Berlin, working.

Y: Was that your original plan for working on that project or because that is the rule of Re-FREAM that you have decided on?

G: Yes, the rule of Re-FREAM is you have three months to work together with the company. So the full funding was nine months, where three was with your partner supporter, and so mine was in the Berlin hub. But because of the pandemic, they extended our funding for eleven months. Therefore, as soon as they released the lockdown, I was able to travel to Berlin and to do July and August together. But that was my choice. Maybe other people, they did it before the lockdown because we started the funding in October 2019. So some people did the partnership already at the beginning and my decision was to go around April, but then the lock down happened, so it was postponed to July and August. Which was super good anyway, because we had more material collected. And then it was really just like fast prototyping. Very fast, I would say, to really reach like a prototype that was able to work on a lab setup.

Y: Do you think there's anything you would have changed in the schedule arrangement? Like to have more time in house working with him, or maybe you think the schedule that they set up for you was perfect?

G: No, there was nothing perfect. As I believe probably most European funding was not. So it's not too much limited to the Re-FREAM project, even though they also had some issues inside their funding because it was the first round. So we were a bit of the guinea pig to test, which is okay, plus there was pandemic. But now of course, more time would have been nice. We did only two months instead of three months maybe, or even more would have been nice. But honestly, it doesn't mean that maybe if we had more time we would have done more testing. The reality is that because we had only two months, we were very efficient to do it properly.

Y: During other working periods, did you contact each other? Like through the Internet or maybe do you discuss things together beforehand before you meet him?

G: Yeah. We discovered what we developed then physically, just when I was there, because I was able to understand which machine they were able to properly support what we needed. We had a first pre-plan, but everything was kind of like a running wheel as soon as we were together in Berlin.

Y: So actually working physically together was much more effective. Also for your part, when you are developing your project by yourself, which kind of research did you do? Or which kind of preparation you do before you arrive in Berlin?

G: So the best part of it is that luckily I was never alone. The thing is that I'm super lucky because every time I work with the team, the team is all ready...we are four co-founders and then during Re-FREAM we managed to be in ten people at some point. So the research was done all the time between me and the other three co-founders; a material scientist, Tommaso, Ryo, an engineer in Nanotechnology, and Isabel is a medical anthropologist, and with women. So we did many workshops before I arrived in Berlin, which helped us to validate certain design suggestions we had or to validate certain behavior that we wanted to do with the sensor where to put the sensor. It’s really helped us, those workshops with women, to understand what we wanted, then to develop in the technology. I was very lucky, and then of course being physically helped a lot because we were going faster. But I admit that the communication with Christian and the Fraunhofer team was always very good. So I imagine that if somebody wanted to develop a simple part of electronics and they were not able to be there, they could have done it as well. But of course being there was much easier because you were just at the machine, and when somebody was free, you were able to grab him and do things, or learn to use the machine alone by myself. So it was much more efficient.

Y: Was joining Re-FREAM the original idea when you designed this project? Is this project designed for ReFrame? Or was it a good opportunity?__

G: We needed money and I already had a few grants with the European Horizons in 2020 so I knew that our topics were following the right wave... So we just tried. But we didn't probably understand very well what they wanted, they were never probably too clear... I'm not saying from the collaboration with Fraunhofer but from the beginning of everything in general. And I also think they didn't know what they wanted. So I think everything depended on the type of artists they had in total and what they wanted to achieve at the end to show off as well. They are good for companies that are in partnership to get money and to open up their opportunities in application. But especially for the European funding to show that there are good projects around fashion, tech or .... So there is a win-win for everyone... that you need to achieve at certain points. But it was very good for us, because it helped us to put the first prototype in action.

Y: To join ReFrame, does the funding of their organization influence the project that you are working on?

G: They usually do, but it depends on who you have in front. With me it was difficult to get influenced from others outside our hub in Berlin. But usually they can influence. In our way, I think it didn't influence too much because it was more the technology that led to the prototype. So we were using an embroidery machine to develop the old sensor and part of the electronics part of electronics were coming from Seattle. So everything we are working on influenced the prototype rather than what the organization wanted. But it could happen sometimes. Not our case, I think. Right, Chris?

C : There was also a huge diversity in the program from the technology partners. Some partners only had a specific technology they were offering to the artist, and I think we were always very open and like application driven to select. So I think there was nothing like we really tried to influence the demonstrator. Actually this concept from Julia and the whole ALMA team made us trust in trying completely something new like this functionalization of fibers, we never tried because this is something that you take the conductor thread and you go in the chemistry lab and then you apply some seam conductor layers on the thread to create this flexible texture sensor. I mean, this is like not our usual work but it was very interesting and luckily nothing had blown up or exploded.

G : Yeah, and that was actually the nicest part as well because our sensor was supposed to then from Fraunhofer to go to Cambridge to be coated to have this chemical process. But because in Cambridge Tommaso the scientists had the lab closed, locked down completely, we had to do it in Fraunhofer but luckily Fraunhofer is so huge with infinite departments. Just upstairs we had the chemistry department where we were able to just do the coating by our own. So we had a guy that was helping us, it was mainly me and the guy with the supervision of Christian to make sure that everything works. And then it works, very good.

Y: Does Re-FREAM have a set plan that you only get a certain kind of help from the collaborating department or you have all the lab accessible and everyone accessible if you need?

G : No, it depends on the partners. So I think you get only what Re-FREAM signed with them. We were lucky that in front of us we were quite free. We also had a consultation with the department of the antenna, people to understand which antenna was working best. The team itself in front of her was quite big, I mean I felt because we were collaborating with Christian, with Max, with Raphael, with Paulina, with Ziki. So five people for sure were on ALMA all the time helping. And then there was Tobias from chemistry and then Marko, an Italian guy who came for the antenna. I remember all the names. So it was quiet all the time, very much influenced. But it's really subjective. It depends because I remember that some people that were collaborating in Valencia with I-tex had only a specific machine that they could use early in a specific time. Just a bit of luck, probably, as well.

Y: Let’s talk about the referendum community. Do you know other artists that joined this program? Or many technicians and experts like Christian?

G: I probably know now, everyone and some of them I knew already, especially the people from the hub Berlin actually knew all of them already. And then I met other people with some of them I'm still in touch with. Yes, I know them, I guess.

Y: And is that part of the platform offered or is that more like spontaneous connection?

G: The platform should have offered the connection, but no, it was totally spontaneous because they didn't offer it. From my point of view, they could have offered much more exchange. They just expected that maybe at the midterm, which happened in the beginning of January, we were supposed to already know what the others were doing or maybe discovering in that moment. But of course it would have been much nicer if we could have talked before, even exchange what was happening from the technical point of view. But then the question comes up “what is fashion”? I think we then achieve a certain level of equilibrium in understanding. But the beginning was a bit of finger pointing, being like not even the mentor but much more like the teacher. So I don't know, the midterm was weird. It could have been, from my point of view, prepared much better from a community point of view for what we're going to share and get. So it was a bit controversial for some part, but maybe you Christian you remember it in a different way.

C: No, I also remember it like you do. But I have to say I think there were also more community activities planned on site but like two out of these three years there were pandemic and travel restrictions. A lot of things got canceled and we had one partner who was also manager, they were really creating an online series for exchange. But I think this was maybe later in another project. Because you have this project with so much talent and experts from different fields...that you cannot do everything online. So that was really like a pity, but we cannot change it. And I think in a second call we had no personal meeting with everyone all together. So I have never met the artists from the second call, If we were not like in the heart of it. 2021 was even more difficult to travel and meet.

G: Then we were lucky. Little meetings, but okay.

Y: After the midterm, do you still follow the other projects? Like, is there a regular meeting or there's like a midterm and the final presentation?

G: Yeah, there was a final internal meeting for every hub. I mean, we had it actually not only ALMA one day because I was in Berlin and it was the last day that I was there. So we kind of did a small exhibition internally, which was very nice, and then we did the final exhibition one month or more months later.
Altogether, every hub came to Berlin, luckily for us, and we exhibited there.

C: I think, which was interesting for me as a Technologist, we also had a blog project. Do you remember, was it like ten blog posts you had to write?

G: That’s true, that’s was nice because it was like recapping like every month what we were doing and sharing it somehow. So yeah, at the end probably they were ten because it was one per month. So every month we had a report to give and then... sorry, maybe this is the administration part I try to forget because it was really a lot... like they were really asking us how many times do you need per day.

Y: Do you think that’s helpful for your project, the reports? Like for schedule or for the progress or maybe it's just for your procedure?

G : Sure, it is helpful. It was also helpful to have an assistant that could write it... because you didn't have all the time to do everything. But yeah, looking back, it was helpful, but honestly, without an assistant, I couldn’t have done everything. At one point, we had two assistants. Because it was a lot of administration from business, from a money keeping point of view, and then those reports, the blog posts and continuing with the project. So it was a bit too much to do from the artist himself, but then everyone was organizing their project as they wanted, so we were paying an assistant working part time with us.

Y: Besides the report of the project, do you also have other procedures? Like, do you need to report how you use the funding or do you need to give other bureaucratic regulations for the organization?

G: Every type of receipt that you receive, you have to properly photograph it, sign it and put it in a specific place. So that was the money. Then you had the time sheet that you had to fill up every day with why, where, when and what you did. Also for the people working with you... but I was doing every end of the month. It was easier because they were checking every end of the month, so I was just trying to remember, but I'm good at remembering those things.
Imagine that this is European funding, like they have money which they give away and they want to know everything, what you are doing with it, in order to justify the amount of money they give you, which for them is a lot. For us it's nothing, but they want to be able to justify. So, for example, now we are trying to have UK money. They don't care too much about this part. But then they care, for example, a lot about the business you're bringing after. So for the UK, for example, it's much more important that after you continue and you are a startup and you push it, in this case it is more artistic and they just want a good outcome and you use their money very well and prove it. So this is the difference that I find, maybe it’s different in Taiwan.

Y: How much does the funding cover? Like all the material or human resources or maybe anything...In European funding, can you use it for your personal salary or for your travel spending?

G: It depends on each European funding. So the Re-FREAM one they allocated already the amount of money you could use for specific needs. So you had 5K for travel, 19K for your personal salary. 12K for the materials, there was just one specific money allocation, which I think they made a mistake, from my point of view. Actually two. So one, they expected that we were paying our own living in the place of the hub, which was not fair because three months, especially in Berlin, for example, was not a joke if you were not living in Berlin. So this was a mistake for me. They should have covered it if they want us to go to the place for three months. And then the second one was money allocation, which was about how it was called... It was like a resource, kind of, basically you could buy a machine. Let's say I needed a vinyl cutting machine. I could buy it. But then the money, I could justify the money only until the funding. So let's say the machine cost €300. I couldn't pay totally with the funding because then when the funding is over, either I return the machine or I pay it with my money. I don't know with which calculation, which was quite stupid. So nobody bought any machine, because it was clear that you couldn't rent it. I mean, we couldn't rent anything. So that money then they understood that it was a bit weird. So we use them in another way, for example, to pay for Google storage, the mail, we pay for those types of things and then we use them for other stuff. And then there was other money, €250 per month that was kind of free of justification, which was nice. So we took them and we used them because we used everything, actually. So we kind of left only probably €200 that we didn't use. Because also, the other thing is that if you don't use all of them, you don't get them for free. So you should really use until the last euro in order to say I'm done, we probably left €200 unused. So for the machine part, I think that very similar to Taiwan, we also can't use funding to buy machines, like personal belongings. They think that’s personal belongings.

C: I think maybe I can add here that usually those kinds of funded projects for the European Union you have to specify invest material with a project proposal. And on the administrative level, it worked, like this, that artists were kind of subcontractors. So when the project proposal was submitted to the European Union, we didn't know who's coming and what they needed. So nobody thought about investing and I think this is like I would say it's also a failure or problem, but I think that's the reason, because again, if we work with other programs, it might be completely different. But on the other side, Giulia, in the second call, Marloes, she bought a machine, like a cutting machine, was no problem. Maybe they changed it or she found the trick.

G: They probably changed it. They changed many things in the second call, which is fair. Because if they don't learn from the first, then it doesn't make sense. At least they made it easier for the artist.

C: That was also a problem. It wasn't really communicated to the artist of the first call. But we knew from the meeting with the European Project officer, this program is called Science, Technology and Arts, that Re-FREAM was the first large project for them and it was like a test balloon for further projects in the future.

G: Yeah, it makes sense.

Y: So they do take advice from you guys?

C: So we really learned a lot of things which are not going well. I would say most of that was administrative, especially like this paperwork, the reporting...it’s incredible. And I'm happy in a big institute like we are working, we have colleagues who are doing this 24/7. But as a small team or as an individual, it's crazy, a lot of work. So we noted down and we also gave feedback to the European Commission and I'm not sure if they would change something in the future but at least we could improve something for the second call.

W: Okay, this is the first call.

G: Yeah. From my point of view, we had a journalist and artist curator, Katherine, who came to us to do an interview with us and she wrote a report. But I don't really think she actually put the critical part of me and the other people in that report. Because, of course, they were very honest, but also you don't really have a very nice public figure being critical. You don't have a very good profile. So from my point of view, many things were wrong in administration, even in the hub, which not all of them I cannot forgive... but somehow, because it was the first round and because they didn't know too much, they shouldn't have been so mean or so, like, demanding to us artists.

W: To direct?

G: No, they were just like completely from the administration. They were just demanding too much and very strict. But at the same time, they were never open, honest and transparent in what they said, which, if we take it because it's the first round, I'm totally fine. I know that this is your way to try and to test, but then be also a bit more humble, like, don't be so mean and so angry and aggressive and like, “no, now you have to send me this done that...”
That was very frustrating, especially because the money never came in time. So we always had to anticipate money to our collaborators, to things happening and that was not cool. So if you are testing us, at least be honest and humble, really, like gentle in many other things, which they weren't. That was also my big criticism, which probably they could have. But it's not talking about Fraunhofer, it’s that they have managers that were not good, which was also not only their fault because there was a bigger person behind. it was just a chain of miscommunication, misunderstanding, pressure that they also had. But this happened everywhere. It's like in university. If you have a department where the administration is not working, the department will not function well. So this was exactly the same. So I don't know if they got it, this kind of feedback that we gave. I hope so. I don't know.

Y: So you think that they didn't have a very efficient communication with artists when you were still doing the project. You can only report after, not in communication with the organization all the time.

G : But they wouldn't get it. Because we were lucky that our collaboration with Christian and the team was so good. I didn't want to spend too much energy complaining and being angry, even though I did. But then at the end, especially the last two months, I didn't have time to complain with them. But then I had another month just for administration, and just to let you know about my last money... So we finished the project at the end of August. I delivered all the receipts to them at the end of August, but then by chance, for two months, “You have to send more...You have to send more.. So for two months I worked for free in a way, and then at the end of October, we kind of finished the whole bureaucratic issues. I received the money in February 2021, so still six months later, where of course I had to pay people before with my money. Luckily, I actually received the money when I was under the German law so then they were for free. I didn’t have to tax them, as before I had to tax them, so from one way that they arrived late, was okay for once. But it was like imagining €16,000 that arrived six months later. That's not nice. Especially when you're an artist surviving with zero money and always getting late money. So I got used to it, but it's not cool at all.

W : What do they expect? What do they require you to give? Do they just expect you to give the documentation for the process?

G : A beautiful prototype, a beautiful video. They wanted a beautiful prototype to show off in the exhibition, which is totally fair, but they didn't bring us to many places. For the second round I think they brought them to different fairs. To us, no. Which is fine, because we went alone to different fairs or to what we wanted to go or to do. But of course they wanted the fashion prototype, which because none of us in the hub Berlin was a fashion designer, we didn't deliver a fashion product, but a wearable product. Which in the fashion meaning it means something that people can wear and they want to wear because of their needs. So our hub was much more design driven and UX design driven. So it was much more also healthcare related or well being. So therefore we didn't care at all that it was the Bling Bling situation or the catwalk situation. Even though I think all our results were amazing. Even the picture we did, the video we did. But if you compare with the other hubs. For example, the hub in Valencia probably also was a bit more material, sustainable. Proper...like grounded. But the ones in Linz were just fashion. There was no meaning behind it. Nothing. Especially two projects from my point of view. Because now I don't remember the third. It was just purely a catwalk. But because the people organizers were mainly, and the money part was coming from Linz in order to kind of achieve what they may be expected like when they launched the call. They felt that our project was a threat or was just not responding to what they wanted. But it was not our fault. I mean, it was very reasonable also for us to ask “what is fashion for you?”. Because of course it is fashion what we are making, it's just not a catwalk piece. Which me personally, and probably even Christian, will never do. Because we don't care to have just something that goes in the catwalk with bling bling, like if it does the bling bling, but it's helpful and useful, that makes much more sense. So I think it just respected what we are as artists from the Hub in Berlin.

Y: Outside of financial support, do they give you some other positive connection? Or do they give you some other possibilities?

G: No, honestly, they proposed some exhibition to do, but you had to pay, I found it easier. Or you had to do it for free, which I found it really no, usually we get paid, not I have to pay to exhibit. But in my case I used to have a good network. I used to be in a good round, so we were doing it on our own. It was not too much of a Re-FREAM network, but through the Re-FREAM fame or scene we got something else. So it's just the title, maybe that helped.

Y: And now I want to ask you some questions about being an international artist. As far as I know that you do a lot of projects based on feminism or based on female life. Do you find it difficult to get along with people who have maybe a different life experience or maybe with different cultural backgrounds?

G: Yeah, that is becoming more easy recently because there is a huge movement of feminism and trans-feminism in the society, a bit everywhere. So it's becoming much easier to talk about vaginal fluids recently. Maybe just the combination of vaginal fluid and fluid electronics is not there yet, but I'm pretty positive that it's going to be there soon. So even a project like ours can become much easier to be understood and to be used one day, hopefully. So now it's much better. Maybe even before the Re-FREAM was a bit more difficult. During Re-FREAM was not easy, but now it's getting more and more easy.

Y: Can you talk about the experience, maybe some examples like the differences from before and now? Or maybe examples when you are doing workshops.

G: For example, when we just started talking about vaginal fluid in front of scientists and from a designer point of view was not very well perceived. Or the opposite, when the guys scientists talk to a scientist audience about vaginal fluid, nobody trusts them, because they are men. And now slowly they got the language. The right language to get the trust, and I also got the right language to get the trust. With the workshop situation, it honestly doesn't depend too much from the time, because we started to do them in 2019 in Brazil. And there, like the community I got was already super aware. When I did it one year later, for example, Spain was still a bit behind. So it doesn't depend too much from the time, even though of course time is changing, but much more by the culture. And just two months ago I did it in Rome. I did two workshops again of ALMA which now we just changed the name and it's becoming “who is Louisa” because Louisa is becoming more the artifact that one day we can use ALMA Future Flora. And we had two very young participants, one 13 years old and one 16, with the other participants that were from 25 until 55. So there was a huge span. But the two teenagers, they were so much more aware of many things, which at their age, I didn't know anything about. And much more is also open to share. They understood that it was a circle of women as a protected space. They understood that they could exchange because they were getting the feedback or whatever. So it made us all think that we are in good hands for the future. Not only that it is becoming much more easy to be perceived, but also the technology maybe one day can be used properly, because they want to know. But it was a case, it was probably a destiny case that I got these two girls. They were super young, because we thought that they were like 17, and then at the end of the 3 hours we asked them, “By the way, how old are you?”. And one girl said “I'm 13.”. We were shocked, all of us.

Y: Do you have any experience holding workshops in Asia or working in Asia?

G: Yes. I did two workshops in Asia and then another experience. So the two workshops in Asia, one was in Bangkok and one was in Penang. The one in Bangkok was a bit difficult to find people. Very difficult. Nobody wanted to come. But then I found three people that came, four at some point. And the interesting part was that many spirits were part of the conversation. Many spirits like spirits for any type of thing. So it was interesting, that everything was influencing.

W: Are these workshops part of the grant?

G: I made it part of the grant because by chance I was in Thailand. So yes, it became part of the grant.

W: But this is your own decision.

G: Yeah, I didn't use any money to travel in Thailand with the money from Re-FREAM. Absolutely, I couldn’t. Actually at the beginning I got criticized because I spent my time doing workshops rather than being in the lab with Christian. Then by chance two years later they called me to give a consultant on the workshop idea to the other artists. It was very funny. Right. And also the Penang one was during the Re-FREAM, and in Penang was an amazing experience, because we got all the cultures together. We had Chinese Malay, Malay and Indian Malay and everyone with different backgrounds, different stories and the workshop instead of 3 hours, lasted 5 hours. So completely intense, I couldn't stop them. Like very very intense. But again, I was super lucky because I contacted a center for women's violence. So they kind of created a set up. They gave us the space. And then in Japan I won a prize, do you remember? Actually the year of reframe... I got a prize in Japan after I met them, before Pandemic and then I talked about my project. I exhibited Future Flora a lot and the perception was quite good. By chance, like in Osaka people were appreciating. I was exhibiting and I had a lecture there, people were appreciating. But this is my only Asian thing. And now I hope that Taiwan will appreciate it a lot. Just to say, I'm searching for a PhD in Taiwan...just to open and close the bracket. (With a bracket gesture)

W: You just said that you were connected with the governmental department in Japan? Something like that?

G: No, but then I made a prize for them. It's a price. I got a prize because I was proposed as an artist from Ars Electronica because I already won a prize with them. Before I went there Ars Electronica proposed my name and then they picked me. So I won it.

W: It's not directly connected with their governmental department.

G: No, but then the price was private. So then it was a private company by chance giving us a cash price in Japanese currency. Very funny. But at the exhibition at the award ceremony, there were many people who came from the governmental institution. I also invited people from the Italian embassy.
So then it was quite a funny little situation, because I was representing Italy, with this project, in Japan. Which makes a very good point.
Is it also about representation in Japan? You bring some other Italians there?

G: No, I did it by myself, it's just me being patriotic in Japan.

Y: Which kind of artistic organization do you feel like is an ideal situation for you to do creative research or which kind of environment can lead to a very good collaborative community outcome?

G: I think from a funding point of view, what we had in Re-FREAM was not too bad beside what we said to all the critics. So of course European funding that can help us is always appreciated for artists. But now the point is that we are searching for a bigger amount, and European funding they don't really give a bigger amount. And plus now they don't really give things that it's close to the topic of ALMA. So now we are not taking European funding because they are searching for urban projects. We don't do urban projects with ALMA. So that's it, we are not taking them.
And in terms of collaboration with technical partnership like Fraunhofer, ideally another Fraunhofer or Fraunhofer again. Because in Europe we still don't know with who we can collaborate, there are companies that do smart tech stuff, but that's not the point. Honestly, now with ALMA, we are also changing our goals and mission. So it depends. We are really in a month of changing many things, actually not my intention. We are reconstructing what we need. But yeah, ideally partners like Fraunhofer at the time, which was very open and very kind, that would be amazing.

Y: For connecting with people and collaborating with people, do you think there's any difference between being under a governmental organization and being under a self funding organization? Do you have a preferred situation for you when you meet other people to collaborate? Like with a spontaneous opportunity or you just maybe meet someone as a friend and then you know each other's projects, and you want to help each other?

G: I mean, it depends. But of course, we were never able to collaborate with Fraunhofer if there wasn't Re-FREAM, because we didn't have the money to pay them. So the reality is that to collaborate with a big company, European funding is the best because they have the money to pay them as much as they want. But the type of collaborators is also very good, with whom we can pick our own. But I...recently, until now, in my life, always lucky that the people that I attract are very good. So most of the time, the collaborators in ALMA keep on coming back, depending on the need, which is amazing. So we're still in touch with Rafael from the Fraunhofer team, with Christian, we update him all the time, Max and Robin a bit less, but because we're not really focusing on the product design and the sustainability at the moment. But other collaborators are always in a loop because if we need help, we know that they are the best for now. So we go back to them, if we can. And if we have money, which we don't have now. So, it depends.

W: I think mostly what you were talking about is the inner structure and administration part of this program, which is interesting. Also I would like to ask...because the purpose of this research is to find out if it is possible to innovate a platform in the future, which is global.

G: Usually the power is in the institution but I think what is interesting is how much freedom the artist has in what they want to produce, or as an output. And probably they wanted something that for us was very good, to produce a prototype that can validate all these months of research. But yes, the power was in the situation and it's like this most of the time because they give the money and they feel they have the power. But I agree that there should be a bit more freedom on the artist itself, in what they want to produce. So hopefully, it can be in other things... but until now I never saw anything that would giving you this freedom. They usually want back something that can be good for them to show, to show that this money really was helpful for something.